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Siberия
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Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 244
Location: U.S.
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 Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:14 am Post subject: |
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I _always_ use the genitive case in this context. Here is an example of why:
In the movie "Брат", one guy said "наши войны не хотят" meaning "ours don't want a war." But how do you know he didn't mean "they don't want our wars?" Because, if he had meant that, he would have said: "Наших войн не хотят".
Thus I think it is very important to always use the genitive case in this context, to avoid confusion.
-Siberия |
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Sergei
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 99
Location: Voronezh Russia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:59 am Post subject: |
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I showed only how think Russians when they construct a sentence.
They start to think from a subject always as in English.
In your example "наши войны не хотят" the subject is pronoun "наши", predicate is "не хотят", and object is "войны". It meaning "ours don't want a war." That is right.
But "They don't want our wars" doesn't meaning "Наших войн не хотят".
"Наших войн не хотят" is not a complete sentence. It has not a subject.
Subject is the answer for the question “кто?” or “что?”
| Quote: | | But how do you know he didn't mean "they don't want our wars?" |
If he had meant that, he would have said: "Они наших войн не хотят".
This sentence is complete. There is subject (кто?) они. There is predicate (они что делают?) не хотят. There is object (они не хотят чего?) войн. (войн, каких?) Answer for this question is наших. It is attribute or modifier.
If you construct a sentence, these questions and answers are flying in the head as a lightning. You don't think about it and do it automatic. |
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Siberия
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Я уж этого и не имел в виду.
"Наших войн не хотят" - кто = люди в общем.
"Они наших войн не хотят" - в этом предложении у меня возникает вопрос: Кто такие "они"? Какие-то люди другой компании? Государство? Кто? Но без этого слова, кажется как "люди в общем" по моему.
-Siberия |
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Sergei
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 99
Location: Voronezh Russia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Тогда напишите по-английски, что Вы имели в виду? |
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Siberия
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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I meant if you say "наши войны не хотят" to mean "they (people in general) don't want our wars" then you could confuse people. If that's what you mean you'd say "наших войн не хотят", and that's why I always use the genitive case with negative verbs.
-Siberия |
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Eugene
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 173
Location: Нижний Новгород, Россия
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In the movie "Брат", one guy said "наши войны не хотят" meaning "ours don't want a war." But how do you know he didn't mean "they don't want our wars?" |
Наши войнЫ не хотят.
Наши can be used as a general reference for a group or a society of people that can be called as "ours" for some reason -- at war times that was a calling for russian troops: наши - who? - Russians.
Also that can be used for a footbal team members or something like that - наши победили Аргентину со счетом 2:0. (Наши продули Испании всухую  )
Наши войны не хотят - our (people) don't want a war.
Наших войн не хотят. "They" don't want our wars. (Our wars aren't wanted)
The subject of the sentence is absent. It's being implied as a general word "people" or "they", but it's always known by both sides (speaking and listening persons), who is meant by the absent subject.
If there are some doubts if the listening person knows who's meant by the absent subject, it feels like a cloudy hint for "they" and it forces the listener to guess, who are "they"?
Another example:
Тебе пeредали письмо. Causes me to guess who exactly passed the letter.
There are 2 variants possible:
1. The speaking person simply doesn't know who exactly did this, since he's using this form..
2. The speaking person's hinting that it's none of my business who exactly did it.
Hope that helps to clarify the sence shades...
P.S.
| Quote: | | Я уж этого и не имел в виду. |
Уж (1) = snake specie (non-poisonous, It's wide spread all over the forests of Russia)
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%83%D0%B6
Уж (2) = УЖЕ/больше (already/anymore). Used if the next word starts with a vowel:
Я уж и не ждал, что ты придёшь. I didn't expect you to come anymore.
Уж сколько лет прошло с тех пор... So many years have passed since then already... |
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Siberия
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Использование слова "уж" иногда очень странное мне. Например, из такого же фильма: "Уж лучше в армии остался" (мама говорит сыну). Очень трудно учить, как правильно использовать это слово.
-Siberия |
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Sergei
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 99
Location: Voronezh Russia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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I see.
Война (singular)
Nominative case - войнА
Accusative case - войнУ
Genitive case - войнЫ
Dative case - войнЕ
Instrumental case - войнОй
Prepositional case - о войнЕ
Войны (plural)
Nominative case - вОйны
Accusative case - вОйны
Genitive case - вОйн
Dative case - вОйнам
Instrumental case - вОйнами
Prepositional case - о вОйнах
Pay attention on stress.
If the object is singular.
In the movie "Брат", one guy said:
"наши войнЫ не хотят" (войнЫ is genitive singular of войнА not nominative plural or accusative plural of вОйны)
You can say:
"наши войнУ не хотят" (войнУ is accusative of войнА) It is right.
Наши войнЫ не хотят = Наши войнУ не хотят = Ours don’t want a war
Other example (object is accusative case singular with negative verb)
It is proverb.
Ты не хочешь кулеш, тогда ничего не ешь! (Кулеш is the kind of a soup)
(Кулеш is accusative case singular)
This proverb has a short form. Не хочешь кулеш - ничего не ешь!
I want to show that use the object in accusative case singular with negative verb is common practice.
However, you can use the plural object with negative verb in genitive case only not accusative case.
Наши вОйн не хотят = Ours don’t want wars. (вОйн is genitive plural of вОйны)
You wrote:
I meant if you say "наши войны не хотят" to mean "they (people in general) don't want our wars"
Sorry, but "наши войны не хотят" can not be used to mean "they don't want our wars".
Наши войнЫ не хотят = Ours don't want a war. (there is войнЫ here not вОйны)
They don't want our wars = Они не хотят наших войн.
If to suppose "наши вОйны не хотят" then I ask what is "вОйны"? Is it a subject or an object?
1. вОйны is a subject.
Наши вОйны не хотят = Our wars don't want.
It has a little sense. Are you agreeing?
2. вОйны is an object.
... не хотят наши вОйны = ... don't want our wars
This sentence has not a subject and has a little sense too. |
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Sergei
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 99
Location: Voronezh Russia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:18 am Post subject: |
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"Уж" is a noun, an adverb and a particle.
Eugene said to you about a noun and an adverb but it is a particle in your example.
All that better if you stayed in the army.  |
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Eugene
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 173
Location: Нижний Новгород, Россия
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | All that better if you stayed in the army |
It would have been better for you to stay in the army.
УЖ as a particle means nearly the same as "же" (though).
Principal translation:
Прости меня - "forgive me"
Ты прости меня - "forgive me, I'm very sorry"
Ты уж прости меня - "forgive me, I'm very-very-very sorry". 
It takes the edges off the phrase's meaning. As well as "же", "хоть", "-то", etc.
btw:
| Quote: | | Уж лучше б в армии остался |
(Б - short form of БЫ).
Other usages of УЖ:
Нет = no
Ну нет = No way
Ну уж нет = "smoothened" No way.
Да - yes
Ну да!!?? - Really? (you're kidding me)
Ну, да. - Well, yes.
Да уж - Uhh, yes. (slightly disappointed version like: Hey, that guy is very annoying, isn't he? - Да уж.)
Уж лучше бы (он/ты) в армии остался
Disappointment, too, vs non-уж version.
Уж in imperatives: used for "smoothening" the meaning.
Ты уж лучше научи меня (ремонтировать машину), чем я буду каждый раз тебя просить помочь.
Ты уж пойми, не могу я с работой порвать. (Sorry variant) |
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Sergei
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 99
Location: Voronezh Russia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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"Уж лучше в армии остался"
Евгений, я воспринимаю “уж” в этой фразе как усилительную частицу и пытаюсь передать это в переводе.
И ещё, из фразы не определить, кому лучше: сыну, маме или кому-то ещё.
И частицы “бы” в оригинале нет. Может Sibeгия её потерял, не знаю. Пытаюсь перевести то, что дали,
It is so better if you stayed in the army.
It is very better if you stayed in the army.
All that better if you stayed in the army. |
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Siberия
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:39 am Post subject: |
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Я дал так, как услышал. Может, она в кино сказала "уж лучше б в", но я этого и не слышал там.
Вы пожалуйста скажите мне - "уж" делает предложение мягкее, или что-то другого?))
-Siberия |
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Sergei
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 99
Location: Voronezh Russia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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It is so better if you stayed in the army.
It is very better if you stayed in the army.
All that better if you stayed in the army.
Sibeгия, эти три предложения ни о чём не говорят?
Если в них что-то не так, тогда поправь.
It emphasize that mother's discontent is deepened. She was waiting son from the army and she was sure that life will be better but it isn't. |
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Eugene
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 173
Location: Нижний Новгород, Россия
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Вы пожалуйста скажите мне - "уж" делает предложение мягче, или (implied "тут" or "здесь" or "это") что-то другое?)) |
Я считаю - да. Уж делает предложение мягче. 
Это как "Get out of here  " vs "Would you, please, get out of here  "...
Уж лучше б в армии остался звучит гораздо менее остро чем просто "лучше б в армии остался", и несет дополнительный оттенок разочарованности.
"Лучше б в армии остался" звучит злобно/раздражённо (такое ощущение).
Уж-версия - звучит разочарованно, но точно не злобно.
Насчет "лучше Б" - я представить себе не могу этой фразы без Б или БЫ. В разговорной речи в данном контексте должно было бы быть употреблено "Б". (Сослагательное наклонение в чистом виде). А, делая скидку на то, что Siberия - не нэйтив рашн, вполне допускаю, что БВ слились на слух воедино. Ну, да это не трагедия...
Без контекста, действительно, невозможно определить, для кого же лучше, чтобы он остался в армии. Но я ставлю 3 к одному на вариант "лучше для тебя самого".   |
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Sergei
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 99
Location: Voronezh Russia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "лучше для тебя самого". |
Уж точно не для меня. Может ты хотел написать: "лучше для себя самого" или "лучше для него самого"?
Sibeгия look here.
Уж точно не для меня = ТОЧНО не для меня, ТОЧНО! ТОЧНО! = It is exact not for me, and it is very, very exact.
Last edited by Sergei on Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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